Solved GPU Upgrade question

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GPU Upgrade question was created by zuma

Great site Derek a.k.a. Doctor Zen! Thank you for the free shortcuts PDF too. I'm a longtime Movie Studio user. I've been using it for years now, through all the changing hands. I'm no power user, I just have fun with it for my YouTube videos. My latest is linked below. In that latest creation, I finally ran into a serious bottleneck. I used 4 cameras in Multicam mode and my preview was just unbearable, even in Draft mode.

I'm using version 14 though I've lurked here long enough to know that I want to go to 16. It's pretty much a done deal. My pointed question is this: Will the combo of my older i7 4790 @ 3.6Ghz, 16 GB of ram and a (yet to be purchased) GeForce RTX 2060 be enough to give me at least "Good" preview quality with 4 feeds in Multicam mode? I have been getting by quite comfortable with my built in Intel HD graphics (shudder!) til now. It's time for a GPU upgrade! Rendering out the final file has always been quite speedy for me. I've never had an issue with that. This preview in multicam editing mode is my new challenge.

Thank You for your attention and this great resource!

Covid Runaway
22 Apr 2020 07:04 #1

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Replied by DoctorZen on topic GPU Upgrade question

Hi zuma - Welcome to the MSZ Forum :)
Thank you for your message.

Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 17 will be released in the next couple of weeks.
I recommend you upgrade to version 17 once it is released - v17 should fix some of the small problems that v16 had.

I highly recommend upgrading to an Nvidia RTX 2060 !
This is the same graphics card I have in my own computer, after my ancient GTX 570 died last year.
VMSP 16 is fully optimized to take advantage of GPU acceleration and v17 will be no different.

I cannot predict how a 4x mulitcam project will behave on your computer, once you upgrade your graphics card.
Technically speaking your current CPU and a RTX 2060, should be able to handle this much better, however the speed at which your Hard Drive can play back 4x videos at the same time, is also a major determining factor.

Ideally, an 8x core (or more) CPU is far better at processing large Vegas projects.

Regards
Derek
:idea: Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.
Peace :)
22 Apr 2020 13:33 #2

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Replied by zuma on topic GPU Upgrade question

Thank You Doc! The GPU is on order! I will hold off on v17 and upgrade Movie Studio then. I sure hope they keep the upgrade price to $39.99!

P.S. My system is all SSD so I think my hard drive throughput covered. ;)
22 Apr 2020 13:56 #3

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Replied by zuma on topic GPU Upgrade question

RTX 2060 installed and working great. Playing Quake Champions has never been so much fun but I digress. Though I purchased it weeks ago, I finally managed to install Movie Studio 17 Platinum today. Good news, bad news.

Good news: I fired up Movie Studio 14 "one last time" to see what effect the RTX 2060 had. It improved my 4-camera Multicamera editing preview! It wasn't a night and day difference but it was noticeably smoother.

Bad news: My hopes were a bit crushed when I opened up version 17 and it was WAY more choppy in the 4-camera Multicamera editing preview. Huh?! I'm using preview quality "Preview/Auto". Assuming nothing much can be done about that, I remember there was a way to "pre-render" Media for easier editing. I hunted around the menus and found the "Create Video Proxy" option. That brought my project folder from 2.2GB to 3.4GB and... didn't really make a difference. Still too choppy. I fired up task manager. Sure enough, my CPU is around 90% usage while the GPU is barely around 10% in use. I'm gonna take an educated guess and say that 4 cameras is just too much for my i7 4790. I had hopes that there might be some GPU acceleration in the Preview functions but alas, it isn't the case.

Here's where it gets really interesting. I fired up Movie Studio 14 again (good thing I hadn't uninstalled it!) and my CPU averages 70% usage while the GPU doubles to 20% usage! Somehow, version 14 is using more of the GPU than version 17. Huh?!

In Options/Preferences I tried:
  • (tab) Deprecated Features / Allow legacy GPU rendering
  • (tab) File I/O / Hardware Decoder To Use NVIDIA NDEC. No appreciable difference using either or both.

Thoughts? Ideas? Tips? Tricks?
08 Jun 2020 08:07 #4

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Replied by DoctorZen on topic GPU Upgrade question

I can't comment fully, without knowing every single detail about your computer and project.
It only takes one thing that you may not be aware of, to cause problems.

Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 14 uses the old Mainconcept AVC encoder/decoder engine.
This encoder doesn't work properly with modern GPU architecture.
I cannot explain the results you are reporting, without knowing all the details.

Since Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 15 was released, VMS now uses the MAGIX AVC encoder/decoder.
This encoder is fully optimized to work with all the latest Nvidia and AMD graphics cards.
I have a similar computer setup to yourself - I'm actually using a much older CPU model still.
Multi-cam video on my system which also uses an Nvidia RTX 2060, is working very well.

It is difficult to compare GPU performance in different programs, just by viewing the GPU usage, because it is far more complicated than that. Modern GPUs and modern software, is more efficient at encoding/decoding, so does not need to be using 100% of resources - it only uses what it needs.

1. When working with multi-cam video, you need a fast Hard Drive/s that can read multiple files at the same time.
On a lot of "everyday" computers, the Hard Drive simply cannot play back 4x videos at the same time - this is normally one of the BIG bottlenecks, not the CPU or GPU.

2. Anyone working with multi-cam, needs to be working with "Proxy" videos. Video proxies are uncompressed versions of videos, that require far less CPU/GPU power to decode. You should always use the Video Proxy feature, when working with multi-cam. For video proxy versions to work in Vegas, you need to set the Preview Window = Draft or Preview quality. This forces the proxy versions to work, instead of originals. When you switch back to Good or Best, originals should play instead.

3. Not all videos are the same. If your videos came from a GoPro camera, for example, they are terribly hard to edit with in real time, because they are heavily compressed. Trying to play back multi-cam video with GoPro video, is going to grind your CPU to a halt. That's why video proxies should be used.

Different video codecs will use different combinations of CPU/GPU to process - once again it's complicated and not simple.

4. Where did your multi-cam videos come from ?
What are their video properties ?
Use the Media Info app to inspect your files and share info here.
Instructions on how to use Media Info app here:
www.moviestudiozen.com/forum/vegas-pro/2234-audio-going-out-of-sync-in-vegas-pro-14#11356

5. If you have applied any Video FX to your multi-cam videos, that will also grind the Preview Windows to a halt.
Always edit your multi-cam videos first and add Video FX last.

6. You really need to be using an 8x Core CPU or higher, when editing multi-cam videos. 4x Cores will get you by, but can't handle things like an 8x Core does.

7. Extremely important. If your Project Properties don't match your 4x multi-cam videos precisely, it will cause a HUGE strain on the CPU & GPU and grind everything to a halt. If the 4x videos came from different cameras, recorded with different Frame Rates, that is going to cause a BIG problem.
:idea: Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.
Peace :)
08 Jun 2020 12:14 #5

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Replied by zuma on topic GPU Upgrade question

Thank You for your detailed response Doc. First off, I'm still glad I upgraded. I am a die hard VMS user. I've been with it for quite a while and I have no intention of jumping ship. I'm quite comfortable using VMS and, regardless of hiccups here and there, I still find a way to make it all work. Also, they are quite happy with side by side installations so I can still use both versions if I need to.

DoctorZen wrote: 1. When working with multi-cam video, you need a fast Hard Drive/s that can read multiple files at the same time.
On a lot of "everyday" computers, the Hard Drive simply cannot play back 4x videos at the same time - this is normally one of the BIG bottlenecks, not the CPU or GPU.


I have a Western Digital M.2 SSD at 500GB. It's 6 Gb/s capable. In theory, of course.

DoctorZen wrote: 2. Anyone working with multi-cam, needs to be working with "Proxy" videos. Video proxies are uncompressed versions of videos, that require far less CPU/GPU power to decode. You should always use the Video Proxy feature, when working with multi-cam. For video proxy versions to work in Vegas, you need to set the Preview Window = Draft or Preview quality. This forces the proxy versions to work, instead of originals. When you switch back to Good or Best, originals should play instead.


I just tried that today and I'm a bit puzzled it didn't really make a difference. I read the Help topic about Proxy files and I even backed it down to Draft, from Preview, with no appreciable improvement. Perhaps if I try it with a simpler, one cam, edit I would see different results. Then again, I don't have issues with the preview 'til I use Multicam so it's a bit of a pickle.

DoctorZen wrote: 3. Not all videos are the same. If your videos came from a GoPro camera, for example, they are terribly hard to edit with in real time, because they are heavily compressed. Trying to play back multi-cam video with GoPro video, is going to grind your CPU to a halt. That's why video proxies should be used.


I think we're on to something here. See below.

DoctorZen wrote: Different video codecs will use different combinations of CPU/GPU to process - once again it's complicated and not simple.

4. Where did your multi-cam videos come from ?
What are their video properties ?
Use the Media Info app to inspect your files and share info here.
Instructions on how to use Media Info app here:
www.moviestudiozen.com/forum/vegas-pro/2234-audio-going-out-of-sync-in-vegas-pro-14#11356


All video from one source - my Google Pixel 2 phone. I think it falls under the heavily compressed GoPro category. :( Here is the basic output from MediaInfo:

General
Complete name :C:\Users\Zuma\Desktop\Runway Runaway video\VID_20200418_100221.mp4
Format :MPEG-4
Format profile :Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID :mp42 (isom/mp42)
File size :488 MiB
Duration :3 min 5 s
Overall bit rate :22.1 Mb/s
Encoded date :UTC 2020-04-18 17:02:21
Tagged date :UTC 2020-04-18 17:02:21
xyz :+34.0381-118.1515/
com.android.version :10

Video
ID :2
Format :AVC
Format/Info :Advanced Video Codec
Format profile :This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Format settings :CABAC / 1 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC :Yes
Format settings, Reference frames :1 frame
Format settings, GOP :M=1, N=30
Codec ID :avc1
Codec ID/Info :Advanced Video Coding
Duration :3 min 5 s
Source duration :3 min 5 s
Bit rate :22.0 Mb/s
Width :1 920 pixels
Height :1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio :16:9
Rotation :180°
Frame rate mode :Variable
Frame rate :29.970 (29970/1000) FPS
Minimum frame rate :23.879 FPS
Maximum frame rate :40.197 FPS
Standard :NTSC
Color space :YUV
Chroma subsampling :4:2:0
Bit depth :8 bits
Scan type :Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) :0.354
Stream size :486 MiB (100%)
Source stream size :486 MiB (100%)
Title :VideoHandle
Language :English
Encoded date :UTC 2020-04-18 17:02:21
Tagged date :UTC 2020-04-18 17:02:21
Color range :Full
Color primaries :BT.601 PAL
colour_primaries_Original :BT.601 NTSC
Transfer characteristics :BT.709
transfer_characteristics_Original :BT.601
Matrix coefficients :BT.601
mdhd_Duration :185377
Codec configuration box :avcC

Audio
ID :1
Format :AAC LC
Format/Info :Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID :mp4a-40-2
Duration :3 min 5 s
Source duration :3 min 5 s
Bit rate mode :Constant
Bit rate :96.0 kb/s
Channel(s) :1 channel
Channel layout :C
Sampling rate :48.0 kHz
Frame rate :46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode :Lossy
Stream size :2.12 MiB (0%)
Source stream size :2.12 MiB (0%)
Title :SoundHandle
Language :English
Encoded date :UTC 2020-04-18 17:02:21
Tagged date :UTC 2020-04-18 17:02:21
mdhd_Duration :185359

DoctorZen wrote: 5. If you have applied any Video FX to your multi-cam videos, that will also grind the Preview Windows to a halt.
Always edit your multi-cam videos first and add Video FX last.


I come from the audio world and this reminds me of plugin workflow. We typically only apply plugins (effects) after recording and editing. In this particular case, I only used effects on a single clip of less than 5 seconds. The vast majority of my media is "raw". I don't use much in the way of Video FX. Sometimes I'll spruce up my text and that's about it.

DoctorZen wrote: 6. You really need to be using an 8x Core CPU or higher, when editing multi-cam videos. 4x Cores will get you by, but can't handle things like an 8x Core does.


I'm stuck here. My i7 4790 is only 4 cores and I'm not going to upgrade for at least another year, maybe even two.

DoctorZen wrote: 7. Extremely important. If your Project Properties don't match your 4x multi-cam videos precisely, it will cause a HUGE strain on the CPU & GPU and grind everything to a halt. If the 4x videos came from different cameras, recorded with different Frame Rates, that is going to cause a BIG problem.


On this project, it's set to "Custom (1920x1080, 29.958 fps)". I believe I chose to "match project to media properties" when I created it, which is what I always do.

I think the solution to my Multicam dilemna is easy. Stick to 2 cameras! I'm still puzzled why the Mainconcept encoder seems to perform better in Multicam edit mode than the new MAGIX encoder. I'll say once more - for the actual final video render I've never been bothered. It's only that dang preview that gets clunky.

Speaking of the final render, I just ran a test with this project. My 3m 16sec video rendered to 1080p 29.97 (NVIDIA NVENC) clocks in at just 2m 12sec. I ran the same render, with settings matched as close as possible, using the MainConcept encoder in VMS 14. That clocked in at 9m 26sec! So, quite an improvement in final render times! I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the video performance in the "Preview" section is not being helped much by the new encoder/GPU enhanced integrations. Not with heavily compressed video anyway. Like you've stated, that's more CPU intensive.
08 Jun 2020 15:14 #6

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Replied by DoctorZen on topic GPU Upgrade question

Thanks for providing all that information, because now I can stop guessing.

As I said to you previously, I can edit 4x Multi-cam video quite OK on my old Intel system with an Nvidia RTX 2060.
I mainly edit with video from my expensive Sony A7S mirrorless camera, which records to Sony XAVC (constant frame rate).

I think your main problem is being caused by the type of video you are editing with.
Your mobile phone is recording video using a Variable Frame Rate.
All video editing programs work with Constant Frame Rate video best and only output Constant Frame Rate video.
Technically speaking you can drop variable frame rate video into Vegas, however in reality it can cause many problems.

What is most likely happening, is that Vegas is trying to convert 4x variable frame rate videos to constant frame rate in real time - this is what would grind your system to a halt and cause lag.

Solution
I recommend you convert any video that comes from your phone, into a Constant Frame Rate before you import into Vegas.
Using your example, that would be 29.97 fps.
I also recommend you use a free program called Handbrake to do the conversions.
After you have done the conversions, replace all the videos in your project with the new videos - it still is a good idea to use the Proxy Video function in Vegas.

I have a beginners guide tutorial for how to use Handbrake here:
www.moviestudiozen.com/free-tutorials/miscellaneous-help-tutorials/595-handbrake-v1-1-1-beginners-guide-for-best-video-export-settings
:idea: Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.
Peace :)
08 Jun 2020 16:53 #7

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Replied by zuma on topic GPU Upgrade question

Thanks Doc! At 2am, somewhere in my sleep, I had a similar thought. My idea was sillier, though. I was thinking, "Hey, what if I uncompress to .avi and edit with those clips?" Even though that would be silly, like uncompressing mp3s to .wav files, I thought it might work. Your idea is much better - keep the frame rate constant. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting I stick to .mp4 and simply make sure it is a constant frame rate at 29.97fps. For science, I will give this a go with these existing clips.

I'm curious, what do you think is going on with Preview performance in the Magix versions of VMS (15 and onwards)? Particularly, the fact that I can still open the same project in both 14 and 17 and that Preview runs better in 14. The final renders are, without a d0ubt, miles ahead in 17. If the experiment with converting to constant frame rate is a success, this won't really matter from a practical perspective. Like I said, just curious.

Another question - If one had a camera that shot at a constant frame rate, would shooting uncompressed also be beneficial to the editing process? (Are "prosumer" cameras even capable of shooting uncompressed anymore?) In other words, would heavier loads like Multicam editing benefit from a larger, uncompressed file? I ask because I DO want to upgrade my camera at some point. I don't have the cash for a Sony A7S. Any suggestions at the sub $1000 are most welcomed. :wink:
09 Jun 2020 02:34 #8

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Replied by DoctorZen on topic GPU Upgrade question

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting I stick to .mp4 and simply make sure it is a constant frame rate at 29.97fps.

Yes, stick with mp4 when using Handbrake. I always give people the simplest and easiest solutions first.
I know that Handbrake works 100% of the time, for converting Variable Frame Rate to Constant Frame Rate.

If you have the patience to try something a little more professional, you could try converting the mobile phone video to Cineform.avi format.
I have never tested Cineform.avi format for converting Variable Frame Rate to Constant Frame Rate, so not sure if it will work - technically speaking it should be OK.
Cineform is one of the best professional editing formats, because it is an uncompressed format and plays back very easily in Vegas.

If you know the YouTube channel Linus Tech Tips , they shoot most of their video using "Hollywood/Professional" level RED cameras. These produce MASSIVE files that are almost impossible to play back in any video editing program. Part of their workflow is to first convert ALL their video into Cineform.avi format before they begin editing. After doing this, they can play back video in real time without tremendous video lag.

I have a tutorial for Vegas Movie Studio Platinum users here, that shows how to render out Cineform.avi proxies.
www.moviestudiozen.com/free-tutorials/sony-vegas-pro/592-render-cineform-video-from-vegas-pro-movie-studio

I'm curious, what do you think is going on with Preview performance in the Magix versions of VMS (15 and onwards)?

I have no idea. All I know is that over the years, certain very specific video from certain cameras, can behave strangely in different versions of Vegas. As an example, I remember a lot of Panasonic videos use to cause big problems in Vegas, until they implemented a specific fix for just Panasonic videos from a narrow range of models.

If one had a camera that shot at a constant frame rate, would shooting uncompressed also be beneficial to the editing process?

As I have already explained, most professionals convert ALL their video to an "Intermediate" format before they begin editing. This process decompresses the video first, which means Vegas does not have to do this step in real time, thus improving playback performance dramatically.

I ask because I DO want to upgrade my camera at some point. I don't have the cash for a Sony A7S.

I don't have any specific recommendations today, without spending a few hours researching the topic - this area is always shifting and changing.
I'm sure some good YouTube searches will reveal some great comparison videos.

I specifically bought my Sony A7s, because I like doing a lot of night time photography and video making.
From memory, this cost me about (AUD) $4000 at the time. You can now buy new for about $2000 and can probably find some good deals on eBay for 2nd hand used cameras. The A7s series is for low light.
The more professional grade cameras come with better video codecs, like Sony XAVC.
:idea: Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.
Peace :)
The following user(s) said Thank You: zuma
09 Jun 2020 12:58 #9

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Replied by zuma on topic GPU Upgrade question

Much appreciated Doc. I will post an update once I get Handbrake going.
09 Jun 2020 14:52 #10

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