Idea Handbrake and Debugmode frameserver

Ok - please note that I am on the cusp of learning and am possibly going to ask some basic questions (and therefore travel some blind alleys).

Wanting to set up the Handbrake / debugmode frameserver to work with my editing software.

I have Sony Vegas Pro 13 and Magix Vegas Pro 14 - both on the same PC.

To ensure that Handbrake and Debugmode Frameserver operate within both these editors, do I have to install them once for Sony Pro 13 and again for Magix Pro 14, each time entering the files to add / change the appropriate scripts in the appropriate version of Vegas
Also if so I presume that I have to take into account that there are different versions of the debugmode (ver. 2.15 and ver 2.14).

I have read how to use Handbrake and "manually" create a video file using an intermediate CODEC - but automating the process is attractive.
Appreciate any advice.

Regards,

Peter

Hi Peter,

This is my opinion.......

Peter wrote: I have read how to use Handbrake and "manually" create a video file using an intermediate CODEC - but automating the process is attractive.

Intermediate files are usually rendered using a lossless codec (example; 'uncompressed', 'lagarith lossless codec', etc., very large file size), or visually lossless (example; 'CineForm', moderate file size). Handbrake renders using delivery codec such as H.264/x.264, H.264/x.265, MPEG-2, and MPEG-4. These are good for viewing videos on a PC, flat screen TV, posting the web, or handheld devices. These files can be brought back into Vegas for editing, but are not ideal, as there is quality loss and these format are designed to be of small files size to deliver to viewing devices.

If your intent is to automate rendering Intermediate files, you may want to consider batch rendering within Vegas, or use other rendering software such as TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 6 ($122.00 USD), or Blackmagic DaVinci Resolve 12.5 (free). If you want to use Vegas for this there are batch script files available (more on this later).

Peter wrote: To ensure that Handbrake and Debugmode Frameserver operate within both these editors, do I have to install them once for Sony Pro 13 and again for Magix Pro 14, each time entering the files to add / change the appropriate scripts in the appropriate version of Vegas
Also if so I presume that I have to take into account that there are different versions of the debugmode (ver. 2.15 and ver 2.14).

I think the easiest way to setup 'Vegas2Handbrake' using the DebugMode FrameServer, is to first follow these instructions for Vegas Pro 13.....
www.vegasvideo.de/vegas-2-handbrake-en

Once you have followed the installation and setup, and tested to assure everything is working within Vegas Pro 13, then follow these instructions by 'Marco' for setting it up in Vegas Pro 14......
www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/vegas-pro-14-and-vegas2handbrake--103569/
When I had the Vegas Pro 14 trial, I was successful following Marco's instructions and was able to run the 'vegas2handbrake' process. The only tricky part may be modifying the script file. I used Notepad. If you have any questions about this, we can step you through the process.


Batch Intermediate Rendering - I have 3 script files setup to perform batch rendering. First I bring the source media onto the timeline (use only 1 track for this process) butting each source file against the preceding. I often do 5-10 source files at a time, the more you load, of course the longer the process will take. Then I run a script file called 'RegionAtEvents' which places regions for each event on the track and names the regions with the same name of the source media (event), it's very fast. Then I run a script called 'BatchRender - Regions' which will bring up a window offering options such as the folder to place the rendered files, which render template to use, and optional file naming schemes. This process of course will take a while, depending on the length of your event, how many events, the render template and codec selected. Then I follow this running a script called 'RemoveAllMarkerRegions' which simply does as it is named, removes all the regions from the timeline, this is very fast.

When this batch render process is done, you will have duplicate source files, your original from the camera, and the rendered intermediates.

I also modified these script files to work in Vegas Pro 14, and tested them, they worked fine. If you are interested in the modification, it is rather simple and I will post the procedure.

Hope some of this helps Peter.

Hi George,
Many thanks for your reply and one that I shall return to some time in the future (near or far).
Presently, I am investigating the different intermediate files that are available to me and comparing them on a restricted choice of files to develop some idea of what are their characteristics. Reading information on the net is convoluted and opinionated (not in the negative sense) and will take some time to digest.
That tied with trying to get to grips with colour and the different spectrums again is an overload for this brain. Which to use, with what whilst retaining feet on the ground (I'm a genuine hobbyist) is a lesson in patience.
Things are gradually sinking in.
I foresee questions related to YUV4.2.0 and 4.2.2 and how they relate to files in RGB hovering in the background. I am trying to find out what my camera delivers (via. media info - but that has not delivered what I am looking for) so that I know what the colour level is. From there I would wish to investigate the different codecs and how they show on my set up. Then see how implementing the options such as handbrake / Debugmode (manual 0r Vegas integrated) will be useful or not. My situation is not complex, but intellectually I find it interesting just to be aware of what is possible.
Therefore you comments open up more opportunities - but I am resisting biting off more than I can understand before really understanding how to take advantage of what is already in my sights.
I am aware of links that you indicated - they were how I came to realise the possibilities (in conjunction with your earlier comments on this forum).
I spent the weekend sorting out a viewer that pleased - settling on the POTPlayer 64 - since it allows a wide amount of manipulation. Through that, I hope to be able to distinguish the pro / cons of the different intermediate codecs.
Being "restricted" and happy with 8 bit colour levels will also ensure that I do not wander in to the realms of unrealistic - remaining at hobby and no pretense of needing Pro material.
There is also the difference of being aware of some aspects of the science behind video production and what actually arrives as the finished video product when viewed from an artistic perspective - my ability with the latter being sub basic!
To summarise: A very large landscape of a new subject has opened up before me - and I am just like the proverbial rabbit that is totally dazzled at the present - the excitement! As you will no doubt realise from reading this - things are churning inside the old skull.

Thank you for your pointers and I shall be back to irritate.

Regards,

Peter

Hi Peter,

I understand and respect your resistance to get into overload with various technical aspects of video filming. I often find it quite overwhelming when I drill down to far into the specifics.

As far as 422 10 bit -vs- 420 8 bit, there is no doubt 422/10 is better quality. How much better and when, is in the eye of the beholder. I would much rather view a video in 420/8 of a subject and story line of interest, rather than a video shot in 422/10 of something that I have no interest in. The grandma who ask us to shoot her grandchild's first birthday party is going to pay very little attention to the cinematic value as opposed to the subject of your beloved grand baby expression caught on film. On the other hand, despite the capability of the camera, how the videographer uses their camera and the story they build into the film presentation will vastly improve viewer enjoyment much more than 10 bit over 8 bit. Of course for those in the business, getting paid, they need and are expected to use at least 422/10 bit.

Out of curiosity Peter, what make and model of camera do you use?

For us who prefer 422 10 bit, but to not have a camera capable of capturing this natively, there may be some options. Of course options usually mean extra money in the form of extra equipment, but not necessarily a huge expense. I have a Canon XLH1 camcorder. I think it is an excellent camera, but it is dated and therefore is HDV using mini-DV tapes, delivering the standard HDV 1080-60i 420/8 bit. I extended the useful life by adding an Atomos Samurai Blade HD recorder. This offers several advantages. It will record in 1080-30/24p at 422/10 bit (although the camera maximum via HD-SDI connection is 422/8 bit). It includes a 5 inch high-res monitor much improving the focus and exposure manipulations. And it using SSD drives from the recording media which takes this camera out of the old tape world and puts it into the new digital world while also adding a big increase in recording time lengths. Cost $500 USD + the SSD drive.

I have a Panasonic GH4 which records 420/8 bit 4K in the camera and does a great job. However I have an Atomos Ninja Flame which will record from the camera via HDMI 4K at 422/10 bit. It also uses SSD media to record on and has a 7 inch HD monitor, plus HDR. This was a bit more pricey at about $1,200 USD, but it was worth it to me.

However, for the short films I'm producing for myself, family, friends, associates, etc., very few if any would notice the difference of 422/10 bit over 420/8 bit, or have any idea or care about what camera I used, or have any suspicion that I may have recorded in V-LogL in HDR, and applied various LUTs!!! So do I personally need all the extra stuff, no. However I do enjoy having it, and currently looking for the release of the next Lumix GH5, and most likely will buy one in the first half of 2017.

One more note on Intermediate files, if we missed it earlier. Without a specific advantageous reason, intermediate files may be more effort than they are worth. For example I use intermediate files because they preview at best quality full speed. If our computer has the horsepower to preview full speed at best quality of our original source media, there is no advantage for me to render intermediates. There may be other reason for other users, such as sharing files and agreeing on a common format. Or perhaps downscaling to achieve some kind of quality improvement using some magic pixel manipulation process. And of course, some prefer using proxy files to achieve that smooth full speed preview, which is an alternative to intermediates. Or, like in Vegas Pro 13 and previous version, to overcome the 32 bit limitation of Quicktime, if they are using ProRes source media.

Hi George,
The camera that I am using is: Panasonic HC-X920.
Very pleased with the results that I have obtained. The short examples I have indicated in the past have been of uncontrolled handling of the camera and a 12 metre long "conversation line" at the same time - the objective was to capture the behaviour of the dog and not an artistic creation - my excuse!)
1920*1080 60p out of the camera / Vegas has shown up to be very clean on different screens -even digital projection during work presentations.
Panning whilst in camera stabilisation is on is a pain at times - but that is easily rectified.

Relating to "Intermediates" - yes, it should be understood why and when they are useful.
I have in the past (if you remember) used them to allow different generations of clips to be worked on in a daisy chain to add homemade vector images to video events - this ensuring that compression artifacts did not appear. That was before I obtained Vegas Pro.
Even though my set up is not top notch (i5-4590 CPU@3.30GHz / 8 GB), I have never noted problems with simple editing with a MPEG-4 AVC/H264. source.
- having an intermediate allows me to place different effects and externally created overlays with no preview difficulties. Have used proxies in the past.

Maybe I'm a little paranoid- but just having a final project resting on the the viability of a .vf or .veg gives me the willies. So, when the occasion calls - I archive as an "intermediate" - cuts out re-compression.

Next project is to see if I am able to show the different versions of ice (non slip, slippy and leg breaking variant) on a video - during a walk able to distinguish visually before placing a foot in the wrong place - but describing it verbally is impossible. Better than lazing Christmas day away.

Regards,

Peter

Hi Peter,

OK, so your Panasonic HC-X920, is MPEG-4 AVC/H264 at 28Mbps, VBR, 4:2:0 8 bit. If you are going to use the CineForm codec for the intermediates I would recommend Quality = Medium. That produces 100 Mbps Constant bite rate files. This is over three times the bit rate of your source, and retain as much quality as possible. Any higher quality such as 'High', 'Filmscan 1' or 'Filmscan 2' will just be wasted and create much larger files without added benefit. In addition that codec will render 10 bit, which will not add any quality to your source, but it may allow any FX, such as 'Looks', 'LUT's or color correction more quality to work with, although for many adjustments the advantage may not be that visual, but it comes without added overhead and is there if you can take advantage of it.

Peter wrote: Next project is to see if I am able to show the different versions of ice (non slip, slippy and leg breaking variant) on a video - during a walk able to distinguish visually before placing a foot in the wrong place - but describing it verbally is impossible. Better than lazing Christmas day away.

Now this is a project I would be most interested to see your results. Good Luck with it and hope you post a link so we can view it.

Hi George,

"Cineform ...Any higher quality such as 'High', 'Filmscan 1' or 'Filmscan 2' will just be wasted and create much larger files without added benefit."
Found that out last night!
Plays very nicely though!
At present working through Handbrake before connecting up to Debugmode - Vegas.
By doing all this slowly, it is becoming very apparent where and when the applications will be useful - or not!

Also trying to come to terms with Black and White levels with YUV / RGB - and how working in Vegas will potentially alter the appearances of finished videos if clipping or crushing occurs. Must admit - regarding this - I have not cleared in my mind what happens for the combinations I see as possible. I realise what is occurring and why but when to apply the "correction" is not clear.
If I understand correctly:
My video comes in as YUV 4.2.0 - needs to be viewed in Vegas as RGB (corrected with the Levels Fx), then before rendering the video, remove the FX - depending on the final viewer equipment (Computer or TV).
Haven't sorted the difference between sRGB and cRGB as yet - on the list.
Hopefully as each segment is reached, it should all fall into place, but before hand, lots of trial and error.
I want to confirm what the black is (0 or 16) on the video coming out of my camera using the tools in Vegas - just to see / confirm with my own eyes.

Ice project is on hold as my subject material is covered with a silly depth of white stuff - but, hoping a predicted influx of relative warmth over this weekend will sort that out before the permanent covering sets in. If that doesn't happen, a hold on things until next April.
- Next one in line will be the dog following the scent of a person driving a snowmobile who then is replaced by another person - the dog should follow the initial person's scent and ignore the continuation of the snowmobile track. We shall see.
Valuing the conversation.

Peter