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Solved Movie Studio 13 now rendering at 50fps, when I choose 25. I can't figure it out!

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Hi everyone!

I have Movie Studio 13. I've been using it for years with the same camera (shoots AVC .mts files, up to 1080p), with no issues. Recently however, I noticed that my Youtube uploads were appearing choppy. Upon further inspection I saw that my rendered files were being done in 50fps (Double PAL), instead of the desired and selected 25. I have always done my renders as per the guide here on Zen, and I've been double-checking my steps carefully.
If I choose the 'beginner' option when rendering (i.e. not entering advanced options) and choose Internet HD 1080p, I can get the files successfully rendered at 25fps. However, I need to customise my template in order to choose 'Upper field first' to get crisp, non-blurry video. Choosing 1.3333 aspect ratio also solves the fps issue, but of course makes the A.R wrong.
I have been experimenting with short clips from my timeline in this project, rendering many samples trying different approaches, but I'm really stuck with this 50fps rendering issue. My internet research hasn't yielded similar reports.
As ever, when starting the project, I matched the properties to one of the raw clips.
Project template shows: HD 1080-50i (1920x1080, 25.000 fps)

Any advice on this would be much appreciated!
Thanks,
Charlie
Last Edit:21 Jun 2020 12:01 by 5616

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Hi 5616 Charlie - Welcome to the MSZ Forum :)

If I am understanding you correctly, it sounds like you are changing settings in the Render As template, that are not compatible with video that is shown on the Internet.

All video uploaded to the Internet must be encoded as Progressive, not Interlaced.
The Pixel Aspect Ratio must also be set to 1.000 in the export template.

When you have Interlaced video in a project that is destined for YouTube, the rendering process converts it into Progressive.

Can you please upload a screen shot of the following data to the forum.
Go to the Project Media tab and select one of your videos.
Right-click and select Properties at the bottom of options.
Take a screen shot of the Properties/Media tab and upload to the forum.

By what you have already described, my guess will be that your video properties will look similar to this.
**My old video camera only shoots at 29.97 fps - obviously yours will say 25 fps.



If all my assumptions are correct, your Project Properties should look like this.
Please note that if your source video was recorded at 1440x1080 with a Pixel Aspect Ratio of 1.3333, your Project Properties must also be set identically!!!



When it is time to render the type of video I have just demonstrated, these are the settings you MUST use to create a video suitable for YouTube.
Frame Rate = 25 fps
Allow source to adjust Frame Rate = OFF (it is very important that this setting is OFF !!!)
Field Order = Progressive
Pixel Aspect Ratio = 1.000 (do not change this !!!)



Regards
Derek
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Last Edit:19 Jun 2020 11:39 by DoctorZen
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Hi Derek, thank you so much for your detailed help!

Here are the clip properties. All the clips in this project are from the same cam and have same properties:


Traditionally, I would have my Proj. Props set as follows:


Traditionally, I would render like this:


Through further experimentation I have confirmed that the culprit causing the unwanted 50fps is the field order being 'upper field first', as opposed to progressive scan.
This makes sense now as that is the first thing you mentioned in your post (making progressive not interlaced). Am I right in saying that Upper Field First is interlacing?

So, I would just render as progressive, but the only problem is that with this camera that will result in the footage being blurry around fast moving objects or backgrounds. Please see the example below of a frame with Progressive:


Now with Upper Field First:



Through a lot of extra experimentation last night, I found that I can successfully get 25fps renders without blurring, by changing the project properties to 'progressive scan', with deinterlacing as 'Interpolate Fields'. Then, conventional Progressive render options can be used. However, this all seems like quite a departure from what I remember I used to do.

Interestingly my other camera (basic 2015 gopro) works a treat, and I have always been able to to progressive normal renders at proper fps and no blurring. It's only with my main camera that I've had to mess with options.
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Hi, I've been doing some further investigation. It's been a long while since I last edited video from my old camera (the one in question); more recent videos have used footage from the trouble-free gopro. Looking back at older videos of mine, I get the impression that perhaps I was rendering in progressive, thus getting 25fps, and simply didn't notice the blurring! This blurring issue, which I talked about in the previous post with the example stills - is that called ghosting?

If you look at the link here to an older video, can you see what I mean:


When paused, the moving subjects are not crisp, but 'doubled' and blurred / ghosted.

So, it might be that I just was less picky back then with my video results, and was just happy to get 25fps renders that played smoothly at proper resolution. The implication of this, if true, is that the issue (having ghosted video if rendered progressive) has always been with me. By now noticing the blurring, and changing settings resulting in the crazy 50fps, led me to seek help here! Either way, it'll be great to fix!!

Another update is that I uploaded the full new project to my Youtube again using the 'solution' I mentioned at the end of the last post (progressive project properties, with interpolated deinterlacing, then a progressive render). That video is here:


The original render attempt (ending up with 50fps, Upper Field First), which caused me to create this topic, is here:


You can see in the latter link, the video seems to not be smooth at all, as a consequence of the false 50fps - can you also detect that?

Anyway, this was just an update post for further information and to give you more perspective on my issue! Thanks for your patience!
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Thanks for the detailed reports back - I love it when people provide useful information, instead of forgetting to mention 90% of what they actually did :cheer:

Fast moving subjects are always the most difficult to encode, without creating motion blur.
This is where a modern camera that can record at 50 fps or 60 fps Progressive style, will give you much sharper images, like your GoPro.

There is one trick you can use on your 25 fps Interlaced video, that may reduce the motion blur.
Gamers on YouTube have been using this trick fro years, to improve their gameplay captures for YouTube.

Disable Resampling
Right-click all your videos on the timeline - you can actually select all the clips by highlighting them first (hold down CTRL and select each clip).
In the right-click menu, go to Switches and then set to Disable Resample.

ℹ️ Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.
Last Edit:20 Jun 2020 08:16 by DoctorZen
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Hi Derek,

I never knew about that right click option to disable resampling, that was very interesting. I did several experiments with that variable, and others in that menu, but it would unfortunately not solve the blurring at 25fps.

The Gopro I mentioned, which causes no issues (progressive, no blurring, 25fps) is when shot at 25fps. Any ideas why it works ok? Maybe there is just something about my main camera (Legria HF200, from about 2009) which is perhaps a bit outdated?

And finally, do you think my current solution is ok to stick with from now on, when I have video projects with fast-moving subjects? Just to remind, it is: Project properties to 'progressive scan', with deinterlacing as 'Interpolate Fields'. Then, conventional Progressive render.
I read online some people suggesting that Interpolate is not so good, but the resultant video seems to look ok to me. Can your keen eye notice any issues with the final product? (
)

Oh and just another quick question - is it normal for the uploaded Youtube video to look slightly less good (crispness etc.) than the original uploaded file? Something lost through being converted from the original MP4 to being viewed through the browser plugin? That's just a general question I've always wondered!

Thanks again!
Last Edit:20 Jun 2020 10:02 by 5616

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The Gopro I mentioned, which causes no issues (progressive, no blurring, 25fps) is when shot at 25fps. Any ideas why it works ok? Maybe there is just something about my main camera (Legria HF200, from about 2009) which is perhaps a bit outdated?

The GoPro is recording Progressive video - each frame is a complete frame (still image).
The Legria is recording Interlaced video - 25x even lines of video and 25x odd lines of video, which are stitched together to create the illusion of full frame.

There are many articles you can read on this topic, like these ones for example:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced_video
www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00032537

Interlaces video is a legacy of when they invented TV broadcast, that we use to view on cathode ray glass tubes. They had to invent a way to transmit maximum amount of data with minimal bandwidth. 70 years later technology has completely changed, but the specs are still tied to the past with Interlaced video.

Now all cameras record Progressive by default, because there is no need to restrict bandwidth for data transmission over airwaves or via HDMI cables.
However, most video cameras still have the option of recording as Interlaced in the menus.
If your Legria is an "International" model, you may be able to switch between NTSC (29.97 fps & 24 fps) and PAL (25 fps).
When I bought my Canon video camera years ago, I bought the NTSC model from USA, so I could record at 24 fps.
However, NTSC (USA) cameras when used in PAL countries (like UK and Australia), don't work well indoors near lights, because the powerline frequency of 50Hz causes flicker. In the USA their powerline frequency is 60Hz. The frame rates used are related to power frequencies.

When you record at 24 fps on a traditional video camera, it is recording as Progressive style video, the same as what Hollywood movies use.

And finally, do you think my current solution is ok to stick with from now on, when I have video projects with fast-moving subjects?

If you have found a combination that works for you, then stick with it. Everyone has their own unique challenges.

Oh and just another quick question - is it normal for the uploaded Youtube video to look slightly less good (crispness etc.) than the original uploaded file?

YouTube uses super compression to keep the file sizes as small as possible, which means all uploads loose some quality after YT digests your video on their servers.
All pro film makers hate YT compression !!!
Vimeo uses less aggressive compression, which is why professional film makers prefer to release their videos on Vimeo.
ℹ️ Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.
Last Edit:20 Jun 2020 11:42 by DoctorZen

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My impression is that the motion blurring mentioned a few posts back is simply because interlaced frames were being deinterlaced with the project settings on "blend fields". "Interpolation" avoids this by creating two frames from each interlaced frame, and the resulting 50 fps will give smoother movement than 25p. The ideal answer is, as Derek mentions, to shoot 50 fps progressive but not all of us have "up to date" cameras. My Canon HFG10 only shoots 50i or 25p (and the 25p is recorded as interlaced!).

Why the default in VMS for deinterlacing is blend fields and not interpolation puzzles me. Also with "disable resampling" be warned that VMS doesn't handle interlaced material correctly. It's an old "bug" that has never been fixed. If extra frames are created then these are interlaced copies of frames so when the rendered file is played back and deinterlaced by a player the fields jump back and forth. It should really (as other editors I've used or played with do), deinterlace, add extra frames, then interlace again. The work around is to convert 50i to 50p if you have this problem. I use Handbrake for this.

Lastly MS13 is now a few years old and VMS has since come a long way. The latest VMS17 Platinum is worthwhile looking at. There's a link at the top of this forum. There's a 30 day trial download.
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I've learned so much from this thread!

Thanks so much, Derek and Eric, for all your info. There is a lot to digest and I will keep coming back to the information here. My conclusion is to continue with the Interpolating as the solution for the old camera, since no bad possible side-effects have been identified.
Great to know that my Gopro and other modern cameras film properly with Progressive, that has been a big knowledge gain.

I'm very impressed with your channel and community here. I'm already starting to point friends who are interested in editing, towards Vegas and your channel.

Is it safe to surmise that VMS17 Platinum is the modern equivalent of Movie Studio Platinum 13?
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Is it safe to surmise that VMS17 Platinum is the modern equivalent of Movie Studio Platinum 13?

YES :!: :idea:

As Eric has already suggested, it's time to upgrade from 13 to 17.
Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 17 in my opinion, is the best version of Vegas Movie Studio ever released.
Compared to v13, it has a huge amount of extra functions and many long time bugs have been fixed.
There is a learning curve with the new version, because it is a lot different to v13.

I am currently working on a backlog of important tutorials, to fill in some gaps.
I'm working as fast as possible and will have a beginners guide tutorial for version 17 released very soon.
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