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Solved Rendering without distortions using ProRes in Vegas Pro

Rendering without distortions using ProRes in Vegas Pro was created by pauldr44

Posted 20 Sep 2018 00:38 #1
First, thanks for your website and Youtube tutorials which are most helpful clear and calm. I run a film archive and deliver video to film makers who have licensed the footage. See hrmediaarchive.estuarypress.com/ . Recently I sent an order after rendering the clips from a film in ProRes format. There was a problem with the delivery in which frames were merged and some blurriness resulted. I realized how complex rendering is with the different frame rates and compression process going on behind the scenes. I have 16mm 24 fps original film converted to HD ProRes format. I concluded from this that the best way to deliver footage is to copy the whole film and send it that way without rendering at all. I would rather not send the whole film. I would rather grab the clips ordered and deliver only that. So what is the best way to do this? Does rendering always involve some form of distortion from the original file? Thanks again.

Paul Richards, Estuary Press, Vallejo, CA
Last Edit:20 Sep 2018 11:38 by pauldr44

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Replied by DoctorZen on topic Rendering without distortions using ProRes in Vegas Pro

Posted 20 Sep 2018 11:37 #2
Hi pauldr44

There are other forum members here who also run Film to Video businesses, who are very knowledgeable on this topic.
Hopefully one of them will share something about this.

Just to be crystal clear, I want to understand your current workflow.

1. 16mm 24 fps original film is converted to HD ProRes format.
Is this something that you are doing yourself or does someone else do this for you ?

2. When a customer places an order, you have been using Vegas Pro to render sub-clips from a complete movie, into ProRes and then sending these new ProRes sub-clips to the customer. However, there was a problem with the delivery in which frames were merged and some blurriness resulted.

This is strange behaviour and should not be happening in Vegas.
If you are rendering ProRes into ProRes, there should not be a single difference between the original and the copy you send to a customer.

The only obvious thing you need to be careful of when rendering ProRes to ProRes, is make sure your Project Properties match perfectly the Source Video.
Normally when you import a video into a new project, the Match Media window pops up and asks if you want to match the video and project properties - say yes to this and you can't go wrong.

If something in the Project Properties changed, like the Frame Rate shifting from 24 fps to 23.976 fps or 23.976 fps to 24 fps and then you rendered to a different Frame Rate again, that could potentially cause some weird glitches in the new video.

So make sure to check your settings in the Project Properties window and also the Render As window.
Make sure to open the Custom Settings in the Render As window and check all the Frame Rates match right through the project.

Some more questions...
Which exact version of Vegas Pro are you using ?
Which Build version are you using ?
Go to Help/About to find build number.

Regards
Derek
ℹ️ Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.

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Replied by pauldr44 on topic Rendering without distortions using ProRes in Vegas Pro

Posted 20 Sep 2018 12:48 #3
Hi Derek, Thanks for your helpful and quick response. To answer your first question, I do not do the conversions myself. I had them done in Los Angeles at the Producer's Library Service (photo of scanner used, attached). Second, I am using Vegas Pro 14, Build 270, 64 bit. I do not really know what a Build version is at this point.

The problem arose because I did not copy from the original to the clip version. I located all the clips and then deleted the rest and then rendered the clips into one video. What I sent the client was the rendered clips, not copies. The client asked me to copy the film so there would be no issues. I skipped rendering completely. That works fine. I only recently tried to isolate the clips and send them separately from the whole film. I have always just copied the film for clients. But how would I copy just the clips without rendering?

I think you spotted the problem in my specifying the frame rate. There are so many choices in the Render As window that, in my confusion, I probably used the 23.79 rate instead of 24 fps. If I match up the Project Properties with the Source frame rates, won't I still have to render the clips to get a separate video for the client? And then I would have to render in a ProRes format with 24 fps. I found only one choice that would do that. I do not know how to find out if the frame rates are the same throughout the project. I have a Customize Template button but I am not sure how to read it



I need to learn more about how the industry uses various frame rates and what are the best practices for converting from film at 24 fps to video. My client is an experienced film maker and told me that he finds that no one is clear about this and that every digital transfer he does in acquiring footage brings forth problems like this. He was very understanding.

Thanks again for your response.

Paul Richards
Last Edit:20 Sep 2018 13:40 by pauldr44
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Replied by DoctorZen on topic Rendering without distortions using ProRes in Vegas Pro

Posted 20 Sep 2018 14:24 #4

I am using Vegas Pro 14, Build 270, 64 bit. I do not really know what a Build version is at this point.

Your build version is #270.
Each version of Vegas Pro normally gets many "build version" updates/patches released, which fix bugs and add new features.
You are using the final build version released for Vegas Pro 14, which is good.

Technically you can't copy clips without rendering.
There are advanced techniques some people use "outside of Vegas", but it's not something the average user (including myself) would normally do.

I don't see any problem in you rendering sub-clips (smaller sections) out of a Master (full length) original video.

Creating Regions in your Master Video file

If it was me (maybe this is what you already do), I would create a Master project file that contains the Master "original" video file in ProRes, for each of your full length movies.
Then add Markers (Chapter Points) or Regions on the timeline, that indicate all the smaller clip regions.
Press M to create Marker point
OR
Drag a loop region and press R to create a Region

When you want to sell just a small clip from a Master full length movie, render to ProRes and use a Loop Region to render just that Region and/or Marker (Chapter).

If you double-click above the timeline ruler between 2 Markers or inside a Region, a Loop-Region is automatically created which you can use for rendering a smaller sub-clip.



Checking Project Settings

Always make sure Original Master Video Properties = Vegas Project Properties = Render As Settings
If you do this every time, each smaller sub-clip video you render will be a perfect copy from the original.

Check Project Media Properties = Vegas Project Properties



Render As Settings for ProRes

I would guess that you have been selecting ProRes 422 or ProRes HQ ?
ProRes 422 is the most common quality level for every day video, unless the customer was doing advanced video work and requires a higher level.

For a more detailed explanation of ProRes output qualities, I recommend reading this:
www.4kshooters.net/2015/01/26/choose-the-version-of-prores-best-suited-to-your-project/

Selecting the correct Frame Rate is critical !
If your master video was captured at 23.976 fps, select one of those templates in the Render As window.
If your master video was captured at precisely 24.000 fps, you need to select 23.976 first and the press the Customize Template button.
Then manually set the Frame Rate to 24.0

If you selected a Loop Region on your timeline, the loop region option will be turned ON in the Render As window.
This means that when you begin the render, only the section you highlighted will be rendered and turned into a new video, instead of the whole movie.

Tips: Remember to Name the video file a different file name each time BEFORE you start a render.
After you have rendered ONE Loop-Region, go back to the timeline and select a different Loop-Region to render a different sub-clip.
Rinse and repeat.....now you have good quality copies to sell to your customers.



ℹ️ Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.
Last Edit:20 Sep 2018 14:29 by DoctorZen
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Replied by Eagle Six on topic Rendering without distortions using ProRes in Vegas Pro

Posted 21 Sep 2018 01:11 #5
Hi Paul,

In addition to Derek's reply information, you may want to check and make sure the event (clips) in the timeline line have 'Disable resample' checked. Sometimes this will improve the quality of your renders. Select an event in the timeline, then right click, and select 'Properties'...see screenshot....



This screenshot is from Vegas Pro 15, so will be a bit different I think than your Vegas Pro 14. However the results will be the same. I use a script file which checks this box on all events, on all tracks in the timeline very quickly. Version 15 has an option which allows the user to make this setting on a project level, but I'm not familiar with version 14 if it has this feature or not. If 'Disable resample' helps, I'm sure Derek or another member with version 14 can post how to automate so you don't have to manually check each event. I think it is worth a test to determine if this will help, unless of course you are already doing it.
Best Regards......George
Last Edit:25 Sep 2018 08:09 by Eagle Six
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