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Solved Transferring 8mm movies to computer

Transferring 8mm movies to computer was created by kiwihans

Posted 26 Jan 2016 09:25 #1
Hi George: In answer to one of your questions: No, I am not in the US. I am in New Zealand where we use PAL TV. You have prompted me to write on some various ways of capturing 8mm movie film and digitizing these movies.

25 Years ago I started tranferring 8mm movies and in those days there were no DVD's. They all went to VHS tape. I was never satisfied with the results! Each stage, the quality got worse and worse - this all changed when DV cameras became available. However to recap:

It is essential go get a projector that has a control to vary the frame rate. Without this you will never eliminate jitter. You can pick these projectors up on Ebay.

So when I started (I have always done this as a business) I started by going through each roll of film checking for good quality splicing. As you know, 400ft reels can have up t0 8 - 50ft reels all joined up. I have always used the Kodak Press tape system and I use the Kodak Universal splicer (Kodak no longer make the splices but URBANSKI FILM took over their equipment) When all the splices have been checked and replaced where necessary, the film need cleaning and lubrication. From Urbanski you can buy Solvon that does both. Solvon comes out in tins of 1 quart (about 1 litre) Don't clean the film first, otherwise the presstapes will not stick!
Now, project your movies on a white card and place your camera as close to the projector to avoid keystoning. Now run your movies while recording with the camera.

You can also buy a box which has a mirror in it and frosted glass on the outlet part. 2 things to watch with this: Get a box with a large frosted glass, so that the glass frosting does not show up. Secondly watch out for hot spots on your movie. To summarize, these "converters" can be bought at Ebay - I have seen them there.

The best thing of all (if money is no object) is to get a telecine machine. For starters it comes equipped with a variable speed controller. There is a picture of this on my website www.hansgeltonvideo.com as you can see, its a projector that has been modified and has a prism. The 8mm movies are NOT projected but your video camera looks into the prism and "sees" the movie at the film gate. I opted not to go for the frame to frame process as my results are fine quality.
The other advantage is that the real time capturing process is much faster!

I capture all my movies using a HD camera at 1080P Progressive video is a real advantage these days. Regular 8mm runs at 16fps, Super 8mm at 18fps. If there was a lot of panning on the movies this would make them jitter - progressive video eliminates much of this.

There are not many video companies doing this type of work nowadays (so my customers tell me) I do outwork for 3 video companies because they do not have the expertise or equipment to do the work themselves. My remaining work comes from my Internet site.
On my site I have pricelists for various services I offer, although I tend to specialize in doing 8mm and 16mm movies. The majority of my customers now send me a p0rtable hard drive for me to place the digital files on. The advantage is that the movies don't have to highly compressed and they look better.

One thing you want to ask yourself: Do I have a large collection of movies to work on - do I want to learn all about color correction (this site has an excellent tutorial to learn this) Do I want to spend a lot of money for a once event - would it be better to get someone else to do the ground work. My prices include color correction.

Regards, Hans Gelton
Last Edit:30 Jan 2016 00:57 by kiwihans
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Replied by Eagle Six on topic Transferring 8mm movies to computer

Posted 27 Jan 2016 08:16 #2
Thank You Hans for the great information. I actually visited your website several months ago. I didn't connect your name (as you have posted here) with your name on your website until I clicked on your link this morning. Nice website by the way, very informative and personalized. Reasonable prices as well.

I started in photography 1962, mostly with stills (until the past 10 years in video) and was extremely reluctant to switch from film to digital. I tried digital early on but was disappointed in the printing process quality. When prosumer print definition caught up to the cameras, I finally switched and haven't really looked back much. I have sense, scanned all my B&W/color negatives/positives to digital format and have settled down to an inexpensive Epson 13" Claria Artisan printer.

The only thing I have left which I recently became interested in transferring, is one 7" reel 400' Super 8 film. I don't have any reel to reel devices. To transfer this myself, as you point out, I would need to pickup a used projector (with variable frame rate), a bulb, maybe a reel, get a flat surface, fix up a table to match my tripod for my big camera, get some cleaner/wax, a splicer, and darken my office! After this one reel, I would have no use for all this and although I like to learn, this is one of those learning curves I think is best left to professionals.

Once I have the film digitized I can use my equipment to edit the footage, color correct, make any necessary speed changes, add the sound effects and background music, and render out the results (which I have already done to an older VHS transfer of this same film). I'll be making my decision on this project in the next couple weeks. In the mean time I will be reading your post, as you provide a lot of great information and have the expertise to be an authority. Thank You.
Best Regards......George

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Replied by kiwihans on topic Transferring 8mm movies to computer

Posted 27 Jan 2016 19:10 #3
Hi George! Thanks for your kind comments. My son is in the IT business and set up my website. I try to be informative and honest on how I go about doing the various tasks in my site. A lot of companies are not very open about how they go about things and what equipment they use.

Working with 8mm & 16mm movies would have to be the most difficult and demanding work you will ever do - particularly if you want good quality. For starters you need to spend good money getting the right equipment and learning all about "How to use Colour Correction Tools" Derek on this site has made a fine job with the tutorial on this site you can learn a lot from.

So why is working with old movies so difficult? Here are the main differences between Movie and Video cameras:

Movie cameras: Did not have auto focus
There was no such thing as auto white color balance (Kodak films were made to be used in daylight - preferably when sunny)
otherwise you can get colorcasts
No such thing as automatic exposure (with most cameras)- a very few did.
The film sensitivity was low commonly - 25 ASA that meant that inside movies were really not usable inside wedding reception places
The was no image stabilisation - this could mean shaky shots, unless the operator held the camera steady.

In the computer we are trying to make allowances by editing to overcome these problems. Large LCD TV screens really show up how the movies look. This is different on how they look when projected on a screen in a dark room.

By all means have a go at doing your 400ft real of Super 8 film yourself. You might find satisfaction from producing good quality. Personally its taken me a few years to get to the point where my customers are very happy with my results. If you decide you would like me to digitize your movie for you, we need to have some further discussions such as: Do you want an AVI or MP4 file - will you send a portable Hard drive, I think you said you are in the US so do you want NTSC TV format etc. My work is already color corrected so you don't have to do this part ......
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Replied by BillTweedy on topic Transferring 8mm movies to computer

Posted 29 Jan 2016 22:42 #4
Hello Hans

A nice description of 8mm cine film digitisation and the difficulties involved for the home enthusiast, especially as it can be very time consuming and frustrating at times to say the least.

I see you use a Cinemate 8mm, what brand of HD video camera do you use? I bought a Workprinter XP from ebay, which runs at around 8 frames a second and I capture with a sony SD camcorder. I could really do with a better camera sometime. Have you seen the latest Retro Scan from Moviestuff, quite impressive if a little dear for my project. It doesn't rely on a claw to advance the film and can run with damaged perforations.

I had previously tried filming of white card etc but you really do need a projector with a LED light source and a diffuser. I started out trying to modify an Eumig 610D projector as this can run at intervals between 3 and 18fps but didn't want to enlarge the projector gate, hence which is I purchased the Workprinter second hand.

I think I can now produce a decent transfer and I am in the process of learning about Sony Vegas Movie Studio, the hardest part being colour correction. Luckily I don't do this as a business so I can spend as much time on it as I please.

Thanks for your post.
Regards,
Bill

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Replied by kiwihans on topic Transferring 8mm movies to computer

Posted 30 Jan 2016 09:19 #5
Hi again Bill:

Yes, I use a Cinemate 8mm. This is a rebuild of the GAF projector. I bought it from Moviestuff - it was a trade-in from one of their customers. When it arrived here in New Zealand there was a major problem with the claw system. I had to send the projector back to the US for adjustments!
At the time I should have bought a different model from another supplier: FocusScan (on Ebay) also in the US. I am not sure what is happening with MovieStuff. They used to have a big range of movie gear and those website pages no longer appear to exist.
For a while I was corresponding with a guy in Florida who had also bought a Workprinter XP. He did not like it much because it was slow, cumbersome to set up (aerial image) and wished he had bought the Cinemate.

Anyhow, to get back to your question: My HD video camera is a Panasonic HC-X920M. A couple of disappointments from the start: (a) No firewire output - therefore it takes longer to get your files into the PC. It also means that you can't change your mind when you are capturing. By this I mean you can get half way through capturing a clip and you want to stop and change something. Well, you have to stop the camera, find the clip and delete it.
(b) Panasonic use the FAT32 file system. This means that the max size for a file is 4GB. (that's about 20 minutes of continuous capturing).
I found out quickly that I could therefore not capture a 400ft spool of movie in one go. I now split 400ft spools with a white movie leader at 200ft mark rejoin them in the editing process.

I do not like an enlarged projector gate as on the Cinemate. When you get dark sections on a movie, light leaks out of the sprocket holes and onto the images - this stuffs them!! When I change from say Super 8 to regular 8, I have to take the whole projector gate out, stick some black card to prevent this leakage of light.

There are some things to learn when you change from SD video to HD video and I can help you with those when you change over. (Derek gave me a fair bit of help)
I don't know if colour correction with Sony Vegas Movie Studio has the same features as in Sony Vegas Pro 13. If so, I can sure help you a lot by taking you through colour correction step by step.
Lets know about these things and we can carry on from there.........
Last Edit:30 Jan 2016 09:22 by kiwihans

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Replied by BillTweedy on topic Transferring 8mm movies to computer

Posted 30 Jan 2016 09:57 #6
Hello Hans

It seems like you have had quite a struggle in getting to where you are now. My Workprinter (also a modified GAF projector) uses the aerial image method you mentioned and is quite a pain to set up the video camera and also keeping the tripod in the same position. It is quite easy to knock it slightly and affect the line up between the two. I have two heavy bags filled with packs of nappy wipes (the grandchildren are miffed about this) which does help. I need a camera with firewire connectivity as my capture program will not work. I have seen mention of a Cannon GL 2 which seems to work but it is quite an old camera. I am not worried about HD yet and will stick with SD if I can.

Back to colour correction I have been dabbling with various aspects and I am at the moment experimenting with using White Balance first, using the eye dropper to pick out a white spot, I then use the Black and White plugin to see how it looks like in black and white. I then find it is easier to adjust the brightness and contrast. When I go back to colour it seems to make it look much better. I am beginning to think that there are so many ways to go about it that just experimenting gives me a better chance of finding my way of doing it.

Regards
Bill

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Replied by kiwihans on topic Transferring 8mm movies to computer

Posted 30 Jan 2016 11:46 #7
About six months ago I was forced to change over to HD video. Before that I was using a Panasonic NV-MX300 SD , 3CCD camera. This camera started developing problems with pixels on the CCD's dying off. The official Panasonic repair place could no longer get parts.
If you can stick with your present present SD camera do so. When I changed to HD, I found I needed to spend about $nz 2000 to get my PC rebuilt so it would handle HD - New motherboard, far more Ram, New processor and powerful graphics card. Make no mistake - HD is VERY demanding on processing power!

I have had a quick look at Movie Studio and suspect it does not have nearly enough features as Vegas Pro 13. (Vegas 13 is what I use) Have a look at Derek's tutorial: "Vegas Pro - how to use Colour Correction Tools" Does your present software have these features? If it is considerably different I doubt I will be much help to you.......

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Replied by BillTweedy on topic Transferring 8mm movies to computer

Posted 30 Jan 2016 20:09 #8
My version doesn't have the Video Scopes which I see from the tutorial are really what's needed. I'll just keep experimenting and eventually I'll get it right.

Many Thanks
Bill

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Replied by kiwihans on topic Transferring 8mm movies to computer

Posted 31 Jan 2016 07:42 #9
That's bad luck Bill! Yes, you really need the video scopes. As long as you do a manual white balance on your camera for each reel of film, you will already make a big difference. Maybe your software has a color balance feature you could use.

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Replied by Eagle Six on topic Transferring 8mm movies to computer

Posted 31 Jan 2016 10:30 #10
Good part of SMS13P is it comes with the same basic color correction tools as Vegas Pro, not withstanding the scopes. Professionals of course wouldn't be caught without the scopes, but we still can make reasonably close adjustments without scopes, or at least most can. Considering we have close to normal vision (even if needing corrective lens...I sure do), we can look at a photograph and tell if it looks nice or not. Some are better at this than others. The good thing for those "others" (I'm in that group), if we don't seem to have an eye for it, we can learn.

Way back when I went to photography school, I used various photograph scenes such as downtown street, portraits, landscapes, vehicles, etc. and took bracketed shots to compare. 3 under exposed, correct exposure as the base benchmark, and 3 over exposed. I also took sample photographs with various color gels (as filters) over the lens. The benchmark was always available to compare to my corrections. I did get better at color correction, but as my instructor pointed, a greater value to the drill was, I was teaching my eyes to better identify proper colors and proper exposure. So even if I struggled applying the correct tools or amounts, I could tell what was looking acceptable and what was not. This came in handy when I started to color correct video.

In addition to setting the camera white balance prior to shooting, I most often, at the beginning of the shot, also include a few seconds of a standard color card. The color card should at minimum have the 3 primary colors as well as pure white and pure black. Mine has white, black , the 3 primary color and the 3 secondary colors, as well as, an 18% grey area (it's a bit of overkill, but a through back from my still photography film days and doesn't cost any more time). This is a bit more difficult during transfers, but not impossible, and mat help.

I'm certainly not a color correction expert, and I do use Vegas Pro scopes now, but I did without the scopes for many years and managed to (usually) get something I felt was descent. Professionals have a higher standard, which is why most of them offer supervised sessions when it comes to color correction and grading, because everyone has a different opinion as to what is too bright, too dark, levels of chroma and luminance...well, not everyone, but many of us!

Professional want their clients to be happy with the results. For us others, we are the best judge of our own adjustments. Although, at least for me, when I started it was frustrating the amount of time I would spend on color correcting, but now I'm a little bit faster at it, I think a bit better at it, and I'm not near as picky as I used to be!
Best Regards......George

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