Solved Video Card Upgrade Questions

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Video Card Upgrade Questions was created by robbif

Greetings. Despite signing up over a year ago, this is my first topic, so please be patient!

I posted this in the Magix VMS forum and have gotten no answers. Maybe you can help.

I'm looking forward to upgrading video cards to hopefully take advantage of NVENG support.

Video: EVGA Geforce 560 Ti Superclocked
CPU: Intel Core i7-2600 Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz (3.8GHz Turbo Boost)
MB: Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD4 (Rev 1.0 BIOS ver F1)
RAM: Kingston Technology HyperX LoVo (4 x 2GB Modules) 4 Dual Channel
O/S: Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit
Editor: Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 15 Build 116

EVGA said...
Yes, according to Magix the NVENC codec requires a 600 series card or
greater. I wouldn't run a graphics card greater than a GTX 1070 on your
system mostly due to bottleneck issues with the CPU but it should run
fine on that Gigabyte Z68 provided that you have the latest BIOS update
and the memory should be ok but more is better for high quality video
rendering if your motherboard supports it.

UPDATE: I asked for an overview, and (I assume "1080" is a typo) EVGA said ....

1. There are various models for the GTX 1070's, they are divided by speed, typically the faster they are the more they cost.
GTX 1070 ---> GTX 1070 SC --- > GTX 1070 SSC ---> GTX 1080 FTW
cost vs speed, I believe that the GTX 1070 SC is the better option, it will run any game or application the same as the other higher models. Unless you prefer to overclock then the FTW is the better option, otherwise, stick to the SC version.
2. The TI version is a better performing version of a non-ti model, these models are released after the regular versions have been out more than a few months. They are about 20%-30% faster than the non-ti version. I recommend getting the Ti model as it performs better in games and in applications.
Let's assume I upgrade to a GTX 1070 with my current configuration...
...my questions...

1. I should know this one, but does GPU acceleration aid in simple timeline playback?

2. What sort of performance gain (percentage?) will I see in what situations...
- timeline playback?
- trimmer playback?
- pre-rendering a loop region?
- basic Make Movie rendering?
- others I don't know?

3. How much more performance gain would I get increasing RAM from 8 to 16GB?

4. Any recommendations on the GTX 170 variations and other cards?

Thanks very much for your expertise!
18 Jun 2018 00:06 #1

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Replied by DoctorZen on topic Video Card Upgrade Questions

Hi Robbif

I have moved your new message into the Computer Hardware sub-forum.

I am in a similar situation to yourself.
I have an Intel i7-2600k on a Z68 Motherboard, 16 GB of RAM and an Nvidia GTX570, and Windows 10 64bit.
There is one thing that all i7-2600/k owners have realised - it was a fantastic, long lasting investment that just keeps giving.

Personally I would not recommend upgrading your Graphics Card and keeping your existing system.
If you plonked a GTX1070 into your current system, you are not going to get the full benefit of all it's processing power for many different reasons.
I am not a full expert on this topic, but have learnt this:
Your Z68 uses an older implementation of PCIe - the slots that a graphics card connects to.
New Motherboards use a faster PCIe system now, as do modern GPUs - if you put a GTX1070 in a Z68 board, it is going to be bottlenecked.
Windows 10 is also superior to Windows 7, when it comes to the CPU, GPU and RAM working together.

Your current GPU was the last series (500 series) to work to it's fullest potential, with all versions of Vegas Pro or Vegas Movie Studio, equal or less than versions 14.
I could also say it another way - right now you already have the best GPU/CPU combination with the model Motherboard you have, for a Vegas Video Editing environment.

If you want to start using a GTX1070 with Vegas Movie Studio 15 Platinum or Vegas Pro 15, you need to build a complete new computer system and install Windows 10.
Then you are going to see a significant improvement with Vegas.

Because of these reasons, that's why I have decided to not bother trying to add a modern GPU into a 7 1/2 year old Motherboard - it isn't going to do much at all.
Instead I am saving up a little while longer and then building a complete new system.
I plan to use a GTX 1080 ti with an AMD Threadripper and install a minimum of 32 GBs of RAM.

Because you are lucky enough to own a 500 series GPU, you are already getting better performance in Vegas compared to users who have 600 or 700 series card.

The GPU does help with Timeline playback and processing of many (but not all) Video FX plugins - like core Vegas FX and 3rd plugins like New Blue FX Titler Pro.

Performance gain is impossible to calculate, because it depends on a huge range of variables.

Increasing your RAM from 8GB to 16GB would only have a very small effect, generally speaking.

Honest Conclusion - it's time to build a new system.
There's never been a better time to build a new system, because now there is a large range of high performance CPUs and much more reasonable prices.

Regards
Derek
Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems.
Peace :)
18 Jun 2018 16:09 #2

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Replied by robbif on topic Video Card Upgrade Questions

Hi Derek,

Thanks for the detailed (and painful?) reality check.

Unfortunately, building a new system is out of the question right now.
Actually I had a refund on something elsewhere, making the 1070 much less costly.

OK, assuming I can afford to build a new system in the relatively near future
(I can dream, can't I?), which would give the 1070 a new home and chance to
really shine - would a 1070 in my current rig bring me back up at least to
VMS 14 performance, or at least a little beyond that?

I did submit an official Magix ticket a couple days ago.
I believe what you've told me; but I'm curious what they will say.

Thanks,
Fred

P.S. If I were to install Win10 (as an additional bootable drive) in my current system, how much, if any, would that help?
Also, the only effects I use all the time are Vegas' Brightness/Contrast, Color Corrector, Pan/Crop, and Sharpen.
18 Jun 2018 22:47 #3

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Replied by DoctorZen on topic Video Card Upgrade Questions

A GTX 1070 is not going to do much in Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 14 - you are better off sticking with the GTX 560.
A GTX 1070 is only going work properly in version 15, using the new MAGIX AVC encoder.
The new encoder in v15 is what you need to use NVENC for faster render times.

I cannot predict how a GTX 1070 will behave in a Z68 Motherboard.
All I know is the theory and that says that the card will not be able to work to it's fullest potential in your system, however you should still be able to use it.
You need to find someone who has actually done this.
Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems.
Peace :)
19 Jun 2018 08:13 #4

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Replied by mmcswnavy24 on topic Video Card Upgrade Questions

Hi Fred,

The information that Dr. Zen concerning the GTX 1070 video card, and holding out til you have the funds necessary for a new computer system is quite valid. Here's a quick example of what I just went through.

Previously, I had two Intel based X99 platforms, one with an i7-5930k, the other with an i7-5820k (both Haswell-E processors on the "High End DeskTop" - (HEDT). Since I render out to either mp4, but mostly to Blu-Ray (rarely DVD), and wanting to "downsize" in my older age, I moved to one computer now using the new "Threadripper" AMD 1950X on a MSI Gaming Carbon Pro AC motherboard. Already had a GTX 1070 and GTX 1080 in the previous builds, and am using my 1080 in the new build. I use both Vegas Pro 15 Suite and Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 15 Suite on this machine (did not re-install prior versions). Just for curiosity sake, I did a test render of two Canon 80D .mov clips, and three GoPro Hero 5+ Black clips. All were 29.970 progressive, but the Canon only does 1080, and the GoPro was 4K. So, cut them all to around 5 minutes or so on the timeline, didn't "transcode" any files so used straight source. Tested "downsizing" the 4K to 1080, with no other fx or filters; tested "upsizing" the 1080 to 4k with the Vegas Smart Upscaling filter only on the Canon clips. Roughly, the entire video with the total of 5 clips was around 24 minutes 20 seconds. Big surprise, using the new NVENC encoder with the Magix mp4, I saw a whopping few seconds gain. But, doing a Sony AVC for Blu-ray saw close to three minute gain. All the source footage is off of a 960 EVO PCIe drive, OS is Win 10 Pro 64-bit (1803) on an Intel 750 PCIe drive, and rendering out to a Samsung 850 EVO SSD.

Moral of the story, depends on what your final output is going to be, what you currently have, and what you may eventually upgrade to. My guess is since I already had both version 15 of Pro and Movie Studio with the GTX 1070 and 1080 cards, was not much of an improvement. But I really wanted to shorten the time for creating Blu-Ray specific files, so to me, the new investment was worth it. Still have a video I need to render out, but also still putting the final touches of everything on this machine before I try that. I've followed your thread in the Magix forum, and the comments there are accurate as well. I get asked why I don't use AMD graphics cards, and my answer is always the same: they do not work well for me. I have had some from different "generations", and always seem to be plagued with some sort of issues. Others, like Eagle Six from this forum, and OldSmoke and others at the Magix forums tend to have fewer issues with AMD than they have with nVidia cards. Not knocking either brand, as me being more Intel "friendly" have now gone "over to the Dark Side".

If you do purchase the GTX 1070 for the current, it will serve you well once you move to a newer system. Even if you move your OS to Windows 10, there will be negligible improvements. Your system is "OLD". And, like Derek said, be safe in knowing that you got some great performance over the years with your setup and that Sandy Bridge processor. It was one of my favorites. And to put it mildly, my Home Server (Windows Home Server 2011), had an i5-3570k on the Z77 board, and the processor just went "belly-up". It would cost almost as much to replace the processor alone would have cost almost as much as getting the AMD 1920X (sorry, don't do Ebay), hoping there was still no problem with the other parts of the motherboard. So, I know what the cost of trying to keep that "Platform" alive is. Luckily, able to move one of my "old" systems in for replacement. I know the "Big Guy" upstairs was watching over as everything worked out fine, especially since I have close to 50TB of drive space being used mostly for photos and video on that server.

Good Luck on your decision. If it were me, go for the total system upgrade. It is amazing to realize once you start loading up those programs on your computer and the files you now go through, what you actually need, and what you're thinking "why the Heck did I have these for?"

Mike "The Chief" O'Sullivan
MSI X399 Gaming Pro Carbon AC/1950X/64 GB Corsair/Sapphire Radeon VII/SoundBlaster Zx/Win 10 Pro 64-Bit. Vegas Pro 15 Suite/Vegas MSP 15 Suite/SoundForge Studio 12/Lightroom Classic & Photoshop CC/Hitfilm & Ignite Express 12. Intel 750 PCIe with OS & Apps, Samsung 960 EVO PCIe for source footage.
The following user(s) said Thank You: DoctorZen
19 Jun 2018 23:03 #5

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Replied by robbif on topic Video Card Upgrade Questions

ZenMaster Derek and Chief Mike,

Thanks for your feedback. I understand my system is limited, especially the PCI bus bottleneck.

Both of you have awed me with your experience and skill at explaining details.

Here's my rationalization summary...
- VMS15
- I understand I'll get minimum benefit from the 1070 in my current system.
- Due to recent unrelated refund, the card will only "cost" me about $150.
- I cannot currently afford a new system; but at that card "price" it's a good investment for the future and no harm done for the present.
- I'd be happy if it returned me to my VMS14 performance.

Mike, here's an answer for you (and me!...It gave me an opportunity to look into that level of detail for myself. Thank you!)

Cam1: Canon HFG30 AVCHD 17Mbps, 59.94i, MTS VBR 15Mbps (closeups)
(room audio builtin mics)
Cam2: Canon HFG10 AVCHD FXP mode 17Mbps 60i MTS VBR 16Mbps (locked wide shot)
(Board audio via breakout box into Mic input)
Cam3: GoPro Hero4 Silver 1080 Wide MP4 60fps
Cam4: "experimental" (tried once*) Nexus 7 Tablet
AVCHD 720 12fps MP4, Audio AAC 96Kbps
Effects: Vegas Brightness/Contrast, Color Corrector, Pan/Crop, and Sharpen.
Destination: YouTube
Renders: MAGIX AVC/AAC
MP4
Internet HD 720p 29.97fps YUV 8Mbps
Audio: 384Kbps 48,000Hz 16bit Stereo AAC
Examples:
(*includes Cam4)



I do have one more question for both of you about my trusty old 560...
How about some baby steps at overclocking? Will it gain me a little something? I've always been a chicken to attempt it. Any recommended profiles would be appreciated. I do understand I'll monitor temp and fanspeed intensely!

Thanks again!
Fred
22 Jun 2018 23:29 #6

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Replied by mmcswnavy24 on topic Video Card Upgrade Questions

Hi Fred,

Well not sure about the Good Doc Zen, but for me, I have found "over-clocking" (Processor at least), when it comes to video/photo editing, have not provided me with much improvement. Except the slightly higher temps in my room, and "exaggerated" electric bill! It is something you can try, and there are numerous videos on YouTube about over-clocking, though most are "geared" towards gaming. Your Gigabyte board manual will possibly mention "over-clocking", though no real steps to help out. Those Gigabyte boards with that "UDx" marking, are typically meant for stability (hence the moniker representing Ultra Durable), of which that is why I used some Gigabyte boards in the past. My last one was an X99-UD5-WiFi (revision 1.0), and while it would overclock, would occasionally want to revert and give me a message about a problem with overclocking. So, pretty much left it stock. Like I said, I am not an expert, let alone a enthusiast for that. Even trying to set Memory at the "listed" speed over the "Official Specifications" sometimes doesn't help. Sometimes, it also depends on how well you, as they say, "won the silicon lottery". My new AMD ThreadRipper beasty, is staying at clock speeds for now. Want to ensure stability over everything else, even though cooling is not an issue. So far, so good (keeping fingers crossed!). Of course, your mileage may vary compared to mine. Just make sure if you do decide to try, you have plenty of cooling for not only the processor, but the case as well. Though, if you want to try and are using the stock Intel cooler, you may want to get something slightly more capable. You didn't mention the case you have, so you will have to do some research on it and the size of "After-Market" coolers, whether air or "All-in-One" liquid coolers. Of course, also looking back at what you mentioned, if your processor is only the i7-2600, the "Core Clock Speed" is locked, unlike the over-clockable i7-2600K (or i5-2500K). So it could all be just a "moot" point then. And I am sure you have read previous forum posts, and that the biggest recommendation is the use of an SSD, compared to the "old spinning rust" hard drives.

The graphics card, since you would be getting the 1070, I would recommend installing MSI Afterburner with it (DO NOT INSTALL THE RIVA SERVER!), and at least set the "power limit" slider to its max. JayzTwoCents on YouTube has a good video about this. My 1080 ran fine where it was installed previously, and while I was running VMS 14 Platinum with it. I have the 1080 in my new rig, and that is the only "Over-Clocking" being done at all. Looking back at your original post with the response back from EVGA: the SC is "Super Clocked", SSC is "Super-Super Clocked", and FTW is "For the Win" - their more upper end card. Yes, the SC version is fine! And cheaper!

Watched your two posted videos. Been a while since I heard some good Bluegrass like that! The second one with the Dave Trischka Band, if I wasn't looking at the screen when they first started playing and the gentleman began singing, I would have thought it was Ricky Skaggs singing. Thanks for sharing those. One of these days I'm going to have to make that trip to both Bristol and Martinsville for the NASCAR races!

Good Luck!

Mike "The Chief" O'Sullivan
MSI X399 Gaming Pro Carbon AC/1950X/64 GB Corsair/Sapphire Radeon VII/SoundBlaster Zx/Win 10 Pro 64-Bit. Vegas Pro 15 Suite/Vegas MSP 15 Suite/SoundForge Studio 12/Lightroom Classic & Photoshop CC/Hitfilm & Ignite Express 12. Intel 750 PCIe with OS & Apps, Samsung 960 EVO PCIe for source footage.
23 Jun 2018 03:50 #7

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Replied by robbif on topic Video Card Upgrade Questions

Hi Mike,

Thanks for more education.
I was not talking about overclocking the MB, but OCing my 560Ti SC.
I have the latest version of EVGA's app...


Glad you enjoyed the Bluegrass. (If this doesn't violate ZenMan's rules)...

Come on down to the Hudson Valley Bluegrass Association and the Grey Fox Bluegrass Festival ,
both of which I've been a volunteer for a decade.

All of my photos, videos and audios are on My Website
so please help yourself!

Fred

P.S. Last summer at Grey Fox I recorded a great interview of Ricky!
23 Jun 2018 04:24 #8
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