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Solved Making video/audio tracs work with purely audio tracs in multi-cam editing

My questions concern file types, frame rates, and making video/audio tracs work with purely audio tracs in a multi-camera editing situation.

I had 3 cameras shooting one thing, all Cannons. All the video events are mp4 and the Zoom audio file is mp3.The A camera is 29.970 fps video and 31.250fps audio, B & C cameras are newer and are 59.940 frame rate for video and 46.875fps audio. I had a Zoom audio recorder (pretty sure it was my old Zoom H1 not the H1n) positioned in the area as well and its frame rate was 38.281. Of course the bit rate and sampling rates for the camera and the audio recorder differ too.

Anyway.... the A camera had a failure and I had to pick up with the B or C camera which were shooting at the same time but in different positions. There was a brief hiccup in sound. I was hoping to use the audio recorder sound bytes to fill in the gaps but it seems it might be on slightly different settings than the cameras. Not really understanding the settings and if they play well together I looked into file type hoping it might get them closer. I don't know if changing that does any compressing or what it tweaks. I read an earlier entry on the MSZ Forum about my 29.97 and 59.940 video frame rates not being ideal to put together but the fact that one is divisible by the other means they should work together and your advice on which to choose to match media settings. (or something to that effect).

I guess the first question is will the audio file even work in this instance with the video footage and the second question is do I even need to convert the audio file type to make it play nice with the video files. Media info for the A camera, B camera, C camera, and the Zoom audio file are below.

I read your MSZ Forum post on Multi Camera Editing dated Aug 14,2017 and I do understand generally about syncing the video and audio tracs, making a multi-camera trac and so on. I just am unsure how to make this all work in this instance with the stand alone audio file. I don't want it to be the main audio, the A camera should be the main audio until it goes down, the Zoom audio as soon as A cam goes down, and once B or C camera pick back up again they should be the main audio. At some point A camera comes back online and it would be main audio again. I understand I may have to do some creative chopping/rendering/re-importing so I am not working with so many layers that might not work well together.

A Camera Media Info

General
ID : 1 (0x1)
Complete name : E:\MultiCam-A13(1).3.MTS
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 1.96 GiB
Duration : 16 min 21 s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 17.2 Mb/s
Recorded date : 12:53:03-05:00
Writing application : Canon
FileExtension_Invalid : ts m2t m2s m4t m4s tmf ts tp trp ty

Video
ID : 256 (0x100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4
Format settings : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 16 min 22 s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 16.0 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan type, store method : Separated fields
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.257
Stream size : 1.84 GiB (94%)

Audio
ID : 257 (0x101)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Commercial name : Dolby Digital
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 16 min 22 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 256 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -5 ms
Stream size : 30.0 MiB (1%)
Service kind : Complete Main

Menu
ID : 4096 (0x1000)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Duration : 16 min 21 s
List : 256 (0x100) (AVC) / 257 (0x101) (AC-3)
Service name : Service01
Service provider : FFmpeg
Service type : digital television



B Camera Media Info

General
Complete name : E:\MultiCam-B13.MVI_0093.3.MP4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom (isom/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size : 3.96 GiB
Duration : 16 min 4 s
Overall bit rate : 35.2 Mb/s
Writing application : Lavf57.71.100

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=30
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 16 min 4 s
Bit rate : 34.9 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.281
Stream size : 3.93 GiB (99%)
Language : English
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709
Codec configuration box : avcC

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC LC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID : mp4a-40-2
Duration : 16 min 4 s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 265 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 29.9 MiB (1%)
Default : Yes
Alternate group : 1



C Camera Media Info

General
Complete name : E:\MultiCam-C13.MVI_0151.3.MP4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom (isom/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size : 3.95 GiB
Duration : 16 min 8 s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 35.1 Mb/s
Writing application : Lavf57.71.100

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.2
Format settings : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=30
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 16 min 8 s
Bit rate : 34.8 Mb/s
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.280
Stream size : 3.93 GiB (99%)
Language : English
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709
Codec configuration box : avcC

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC LC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID : mp4a-40-2
Duration : 16 min 8 s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 247 kb/s
Maximum bit rate : 255 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel layout : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 28.5 MiB (1%)
Default : Yes
Alternate group : 1




Zoom Audio Recorder Media Info
General
Complete name : E:\MultiCam-Audio(5)3.mp3
Format : MPEG Audio
File size : 146 MiB
Duration : 1 h 46 min
Overall bit rate mode : Constant
Overall bit rate : 192 kb/s

Audio
Format : MPEG Audio
Format version : Version 1
Format profile : Layer 3
Format settings : Joint stereo / MS Stereo
Duration : 1 h 46 min
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 kb/s
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 kHz
Frame rate : 38.281 FPS (1152 SPF)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 146 MiB (100%)
Last Edit:21 Jun 2020 11:59 by Vidchick

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Hi Vidchick

Thanks for posting in the forum :)

Which version of Vegas Pro are you using right now ???

The first thing I will tell you is how I process Multi-Cam video projects myself - this is an easier way for me to answer your questions.
I also use a Zoom audio recorder to record all my audio, but I record as a .wav file and not an .mp3 file.
.wav audio files are uncompressed, so this is the highest quality you can use.
The other reason why I always record as a .wav audio file, is because it should eliminate any audio syncing issues when trying to match up with video files.
The problem is that some types .mp3 files do not sync very well with .mp4 videos - it has something to do with Sampling Rate I think?

I read many years ago that if you ever experience audio/video syncing issues (when recording the video and audio separately), the solution was to convert ALL the audio files to .wav format. Since this is the solution, it makes sense to record the original files (if possible) to .wav format.

My advice on Audio
If you do experience any problems in your project with the audio drifting out of sync, I recommend you convert all the .mp3 files into .wav format.
You can actually do this with Vegas, by rendering to Wave (Microsoft) - 48,000 Hz 16 Bit or 24 Bit, Stereo, PCM.
If you have an Audio Editing program like Sound Forge Audio Studio or Sound Forge Pro, you can use that to convert .mp3 to .wav



Here are the settings I use in my Zoom H6 recorder:


Syncing Audio and Video files with no effort
I can't remember if I have told you this in the past? I use a 3rd party program called Plural Eyes from Red Giant software to sync all my video and audio files - this program is second to none, however it is very expensive to buy. However it only works in Vegas Pro 16 or below. If you own Vegas Pro 17, you need to do a hack to get it to work. Currently I am just using Vegas Pro 16 to use Plural Eyes for syncing.

Other ways to sync video and audio
In Vegas Pro 17, it has a new audio sync function which seems to be working very well indeed. This means there is no need to use 3rd party software now.
I haven't made any videos about this, however you can watch this video on YouTube to see how it works.
All you have to do is first select the events you want to sync - I would recommend you first sync only your A Camera with your Zoom audio, after you have converted it to .wav format. Once you have done this, Mute the audio from video file and then LOCK the video and zoom audio together, so they don't drop out of sync. Select (highlight) both files, then press G for Group.

Next sync the B-camera audio with Zoom audio.
Then finally sync C-camera audio with Zoom audio.



There are many other ways to sync audio and video, but I'm trying hard to not ramble on for now and keep it simple !
If your cameras support Timecode, you can use that to sync everything as well - that's what the professionals normally use. However, not all cameras support timecode.

Different Video Frame Rates
When mixing 30 fps and 60 fps video, it is best to set the project properties to 30 (29.97) fps.

Hopefully this helps you a bit Vidchick.
You have been very generous in your support of my website and forum, so I want to make sure I can help you solve all your problems with this project.

Regards
Derek
ℹ️ Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.
Last Edit:26 May 2020 11:51 by DoctorZen
The following user(s) said Thank You: Vidchick

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Derek,

I don't currently have the Pro version of any of the softwares. Movie Studio Platinum 16 Suite is what I use and with that I have Sound Forge 12. Sounds like MSP Pro 17 would solve some things for me but that is still too rich for my blood, as is Plural Eyes. I am not sure if my laptop could even run a pro version of Movie Studio. It has Windows 10 Pro, Intel core i7-8650 CPU @ 1.9GHz 2.11GHz, 16GB installed Ram (15.9 useable), 64bit OS x 64bit processor. I do have a souped up Alien desktop I could use for rendering if the laptop could handle general editing actions but I work on the road some and need the laptop to run the same program as the desktop. But alas.... no money to buy Pro so its a moot point.

Are you saying in your post that Plural Eyes only works with MS Pro 16 (only Pro versions) or below as in it would not work with my Movie Studio Platinum 16?

The .mp3 file type causing the audio to drift out of sync explains a lot. Took me forever to sync the video files with the audio and to my ear it still isn't dead on. I will definitely put the .mp3 file through Sound Forge and convert/save to .wav.

Fortunately I do have Zoom files recorded as .wav on some of my other projects but I will convert the ones that are mp3 audio files if I need them as backup. My Zoom recorders are the $80-$120. models not fancy ones like yours but they each record in .mp3 or .wav, different khz settings, and different bit rate selections. My A camera is still a better sound since I have the option to run line-in from a headset mic on the subject of the video and it records directly into that camera. I only use the Zoom recorders for backup sound.

My cameras are lesser Cannon pro-sumer models and do not support time code. Now that I am working with multi-cam editing I intend to buy a production slate (clapper) to aid in my syncing the files.

I see that your Zoom settings are 1 channel and the bit rate is a number I haven't yet seen. Not sure I have that setting. What is your reason for the 1 channel setting?

Since I am using the same cameras and same recorders in each shoot, as long as I record with the Zoom recorders in .wav and match the main camera's other settings sounds like I will set myself up for success.

Thanks so much! As always you get me way ahead of the curve quickly.

Vidchick

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I am not sure if my laptop could even run a pro version of Movie Studio

The CPU in your laptop is actually quite a good model and should handle anything you throw at it.
It can Turbo up to 4.2 GHz.
ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/124968/intel-core-i7-8650u-processor-8m-cache-up-to-4-20-ghz.html

One of the biggest limiting factors in a laptop with complicated Vegas projects, is the Hard Drive/s.
Laptop hard drives are typically slower. When you are editing/rendering a Multi-Cam project, multiple videos are having to be read off the hard drive at the same time, which can really stress the CPU.

Tip for getting more performance out of your laptop
Make sure when you render video with your laptop, to always have the Mains Power connected.
When running on battery power only, the Windows Power Settings will put a hard limit on your CPU and reduce it's speed dramatically.
I also recommend you check your Windows Power Settings and make sure the CPU has it's MAX power setting, set to 100%.

Search "edit power plan" in the Windows Search box next to Windows Start button.
Select result to open Power Settings.
Select Change Advanced Power Settings
Set to High Performance
And finally, check to make sure the CPU Max setting = 100%







Plural Eyes
Don't worry about Plural Eyes for now, because it is very expensive when not on sale (it is a luxury item).
The latest versions of Vegas Pro and Vegas Movie Studio are much better at syncing video/audio now.
The new Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 17 has the same Audio Sync function that Vegas Pro has.
I recommend you download the free trial for VMSP 17 and open up your project.
Try using the Synchronize Audio to Align Events

Zoom .WAV settings
1 Channel just means I'm using 1x Microphone input - Mono mode.
When I record audio with my Zoom, I am using one of the XLR inputs connected to either my shotgun mic or lavalier mic - both of these mics are mono only.
If I had a Stereo Mic connected, the Zoom data would report 2x Channels.
When you set a Zoom Audio recorder to .wav output, the data rate is uncompressed - there is no setting that changes this.

I hope I have answered all your questions.
I think Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 17 may help make your life a lot easier.
A budget clapper board is a great item to have in your kit.
I'm still lazy and just clap my hands 3x times at the start of all my recordings - my 3x claps method always means my audio/video syncs perfectly.
ℹ️ Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.
Last Edit:27 May 2020 11:36 by DoctorZen
The following user(s) said Thank You: Vidchick

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Derek,

Wow, so much to digest in your answers. Yes, you have answered my questions and then some. Hope this post will solve some things for others as well.

As you mentioned in another post, I do render in the Alien desktop as it processes so much better and 3-4 times faster. Nice to know my laptop has the juice to run MSPro should I ever choose to go there. I’d forgotten about the turbo too. The intel info was quite revealing. Great resource.

I work almost exclusively out of external drives with my laptop. I use an SSD with a bunch of extra space on it when editing video in my laptop. Hopefully keeping the laptop with as much free space as possible will help with CPU performance. I will add all your power and performance tricks to my regimen.

I will download to 30 day free trial of MSP17 and try out the sync feature. Do you have any inside info on if they might offer an upgrade deal (upgrade from MSP16 to 17)?

Most of my shoots have a lot of loud ambient noise. I have used hand claps for sync points but I think the clapper is most efficient for my shoots. B&H Photo has some around $20.

Thanks for all the help!

Vidchick
The following user(s) said Thank You: DoctorZen

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Do you have any inside info on if they might offer an upgrade deal (upgrade from MSP16 to 17)?

Click the ad at the top of this page for Vegas Movie Studio.
Scroll to the bottom and select Upgrade from the drop down box for the Platinum version.
Upgrade is $60.

But please make sure it will work using the trial, before you spend any money.
Version 17 is a very good version, because they have fixed a lot of old bugs and made it more user friendly in the Video FX, Transitions and Media Generators windows.
ℹ️ Remember to turn everything off at least once a week, including your brain, then sit somewhere quiet and just chill out.
Unplugging is the best way to find solutions to your problems. If you would like to share some love, post a customer testimonial or make a donation.

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