Solved AVI output settings - transferring Film to Video

Hi Bill,

I did some quick comparisons and think I would start with PAL DV, DVCPRO 50, and Sony YUV Codec. I think the closest match would be the DVCPRO 50. I have put your Mediainfo results below and noted in (bold) the results I got rendering with the DVCPRO 50 'Video Format'.

I first selected the PAL DV template, then selected the 'Video format: = DVCPRO 50' from the selection list. This will probably create a larger file, but maintains almost all attributes. This codec will re-render with 'No Recompression Required' on a 2nd render. Although it is listed as a 'lossy' compression, I think it is very close to 'visually lossless'. I took 3 generations of renders using the DVCPRO 50 video format, put them in Vegas Pro 13 and compared the same frame in the video scopes and they were all identical (this would be expected with 'No Recompression Required'). However, the test video I used was not originally DVCPRO, so you need to test this to confirm my findings. It's the changes from the original that are most important.

If you would like to email me a 10 second test video file from your camera using the same settings you use for recording your film, I would be happy to run these render test with your file and compare them with Vegas Pro scopes to detect any differences.

Sony YUV Codec is a lossless codec with YUV color space and 4:2:2 chroma subsampling and the overall bit rate of 168 Mbps. Resulting files are quite large. This is most likely a bit of overkill.

All these codecs have the capability to change somewhat from the original (again, if I test it I can give you an idea how much), although there may be so little change that the change is almost non-detectable.


Mediainfo results
General
Complete name : C:\Users\Bill\Desktop\TEST.avi (N/A)
Format : AVI (same)
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave (same)
Commercial Name : DVCPRO (same)
File size. : 501 MiB (N/A)
Duration : 2mn 25s (N/A)
Overall bit rate mode : Constant (same)
Overall bit rate : 28.9 Mbps ([better]59.4 Mbps)
Recorded date : 2016-02-22 17:42:51.000 (N/A)

Video
ID : 0 (same)
Format : DV (same)
Commercial name : DVCPRO (same)
Codec ID : dvsd (CDV5)
Codec ID/Hint : Sony (Canopus SD50/DVHD)
Duration : 2mn 25s (N/A)
Bit rate mode : Constant (same)
Bit rate : 24.4 Mbps (same)
Encoded bit rate : 28.8 Mbps (same)
Width : 720 pixels (same)
Height : 576 pixels (same)
Display aspect ratio : 4:3 (same)
Frame rate mode : Constant (same)
Frame rate : 25.000 fps (same)
Standard : PAL (same)
Color space : YUV (same)
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0 ([Better] not listed I think this is 4:2:2 by default, but not less than 4:2:0)
Bit depth : 8 bits (same)
Scan type : Interlaced (same)
Scan order : Bottom Field First (same)
Compression mode : Lossy (same)
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357 (same)
Stream size : 500 MiB (100%) (N/A)
Encoding settings : wb mode= / white balance= / fcm=manual focus

Many Thanks George, you have gone to great lengths with this project for me..

I will give your suggestions a trial later in the week as I am off out for a few days and won't have access to my computer.

Thanks again for your continued interest in my project.

Regards

Bill

As has been identified, there are two vitally important problems to be overcome. The first is to copy each frame of the film without losing quality (but some quality is almost certainly unavoidable so the keyis to minimize this as much as possible) and the second is to reconcile the differing frame rates. This last is important to avoid the impression of distortion which can be quite significant is there is much movement in the clip. As I said, the solution is to interpolate frames so that a second of cine film runs for a second in video. A good cine film will ido this for you but there other processes which will achieve this result. It is not easy and can be expensive but this is why I eventually opted for a comme4r5cial solution. I found a transfer house via Google and, after examining their web pages carefully and making some further e-mail enquiries, I eventually settled for two in this country (UK) as I did not want to risk sending my precious cine film overseas.

Good Luck.

Richard

Hi Richard

This is only a hobby and the aim is to get a reasonable copy before I get too old and before the films degrade. A lot of my films that are over 50 years old are in remarkable condition whilst some are suffering some degradation in colour. Some have exposure issues and camera shake whilst others are shot indoors with a camera light. I can't tell which manufacturer made them but I know some are Kodak and a lot are AGFA whilst some are propriety brands used by Boots.

I did some copies a long time ago off a white sheet of paper, then later I used one of those devices with a 45% mirror and opaque screen which didn't really give a true 4:3 image. Now I use a workprinter and I can now get the best quality with my setup. When I have done all my films I may go down the HD route if funds permit.

I've read somewhere that when you pulldown to the desired frame rate interpolation is required for smoother playback on a TV. This is the stage that I am at now so hence the post.

Regards
Bill

Hi Bill,

I'm a (keen) amateur as well with many of my cine films being of a similar age and exhibiting many of the same issues as yours. Vegas was excellent for making the corrections I needed to deal with fading, darkening, colour and stabilisation. All my work is SD rather than HD and I am very pleased with the outcome when I play them from the DVD to my TV although they are never going to match those achieved when shooting in digital. But the precious family record has survived although it has taken very many man hours, especially as I've added commentary and music.

Best Wishes,

Richard

Yes the commentary and background music are something that I've yet to attempt but for future generations it's a vital piece of information.

Regards
Bill

BillTweedy wrote: Many Thanks George, you have gone to great lengths with this project for me.. ~ ~ ~ Thanks again for your continued interest in my project.

Regards

Bill

Hi Bill,

We all post at our own pace. Please don't feel you have to reply immediately to my suggestions or comments, until whenever it is convenient for you. We all have other obligations and frequently have to prioritize.

-- and --

I have a special interest in your project and feel it is more like our project. In the near future I may be facing a similar issue, so the time I spend here may very well benefit myself next week.

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From the very start I have been confused about the issue of 25p and 18 fps. I think the light bulb finally turned on. Not having a Workstation XP or Cinecap, I can only go from what you post and some information I read on the MovieStuff website. So, I think I have been missing an important part of the puzzle, that may have finally dawned on me.

Please correct me if I'm wrong......

When you calibrate your Workstation to provide flicker free recordings, you are actually changing the speed of your Super 8 film running through the Workstation, which normally runs at 18 fps, to something closer to 24 fps, and then recording it at 25p in your Canon camera to eliminate the flicker. And that is why it appears to run at Charlie Chaplin speed in Movie Studio.

After you do the initial edits in Movie Studio and run it through Cinecap to adjust the speed, you aren't actually producing a video at 18 fps, but adjusting the speed to simulate the normal motion of 18 fps, and rendering it out again at 25p to then feed it back into Movie Studio for finalizing the production. Cinecap is adding frames and the method they use provides better results than you have experienced using Movie Studio.

I hope I have explained this correctly and not adding additional confusion.

Hello George

Not a problem with posting, if I see one on my Ipad I'll reply.

When you calibrate your Workstation to provide flicker free recordings, you are actually changing the speed of your Super 8 film running through the Workstation, which normally runs at 18 fps, to something closer to 24 fps, and then recording it at 25p in your Canon camera to eliminate the flicker. And that is why it appears to run at Charlie Chaplin speed in Movie Studio.

No the speed of the WorkPrinter-XP is set at 6 fps and each frame is captured by the Canon camera and sent to the computer by firewire which produces an AVI file of all the frames, see this description which may help:-

"The WorkPrinter-XP is designed for stunning, ultra high quality transfers of regular 8mm and super 8mm film to PAL or NTSC video using programs such as Premier 6.5, CineCap or CaptureMate. A specially modified mouse is provided that lets the WorkPrinter-XP "talk" to your computer, giving it commands to AUTOMATICALLY capture each individual frame of film and create a standard video file that can then be played back at any speed desired. The WorkPrinter-XP automatically transfers at about six frames per second, making it fast enough for time critical applications and slow enough to be compatible with virtually all fast computer editing systems that have stop motion capture capability. Transferring frame by frame ensures 100% frame accuracy for critical sound synch applications. Also, such frame discretion means the clearest, most crisp picture possible next to a Rank transfer."


Also if that is confusing have a look at the setup procedure here www.moviestuff.tv/workprinter_guide.html
especially Step Ten

After you do the initial edits in Movie Studio and run it through Cinecap to adjust the speed, you aren't actually producing a video at 18 fps, but adjusting the speed to simulate the normal motion of 18 fps, and rendering it out again at 25p to then feed it back into Movie Studio for finalizing the production. Cinecap is adding frames and the method they use provides better results than you have experienced using Movie Studio.

Not quite as you say, when it is converted in Cinecap to 18 fps it has more frames as previously mentioned and it runs naturally, ie not too fast and when it leaves Cinecap it is still an AVI file. There is no rendering at this stage.

Well I'll leave it at that for now,

Regards
Bill

Thanks Bill,

That gives a better understanding of your workflow. Which doesn't effect your initial question, but it is helpful to me.